Introduction

In a recent conversation, Mike Frick from Bear Iron Works shared his extensive experience in the construction and manufacturing industries, emphasizing the critical role of safety. His journey, shaped by personal experiences and professional challenges, highlights how a safety-first approach can enhance productivity and foster a positive work environment.

Mike's Journey into Industry

Mike's background in construction began with his father, who instilled a strong safety mindset in him. Key points from his journey include:

• Early Influences: Growing up in a construction and ranching environment, Mike learned the importance of safety firsthand.
• Business Ventures: At 24, he started his own construction and mining business, where he faced two significant accidents that shaped his perspective on safety.
• OSHA Training: After experiencing workplace accidents, Mike became an OSHA trainer, which transformed his approach to safety and management.

The Connection Between Safety and Performance

Mike's insights reveal a profound connection between safety practices and overall business performance:

• Safety as a Foundation: He believes that prioritizing safety leads to better management and operational efficiency.
• Quality and Tidiness: A tidy worksite correlates with safety, as it reduces hazards and enhances productivity.
• Employee Engagement: Involving workers in safety discussions fosters a sense of ownership and responsibility.

Practical Safety Management Techniques

Mike shared several practical strategies for improving safety in the workplace:

• Pre-Task Conversations: Engaging the crew in discussions about potential hazards before starting work.
• Work Plans: Developing detailed work plans that incorporate safety measures.
• Incentive Programs: Implementing reward systems for safe practices, such as recognizing employees who consistently wear safety gear.

Incentive Type	Description
Carrot	Rewards for safe behavior, such as bonuses or recognition.
Stick	Penalties for unsafe practices, which can lead to resentment.

The Role of Connection in Safety Culture

Mike emphasized the importance of building relationships with workers to enhance safety compliance:

• Caring Leadership: By showing genuine concern for employees, leaders can foster a culture of safety.
• Open Communication: Encouraging workers to share their experiences and concerns leads to better safety practices.
• Understanding Individual Needs: Recognizing personal circumstances, such as past injuries, can help tailor safety measures effectively.

Future of Safety in the Industry

Looking ahead, Mike sees a positive trend in safety practices within the construction and manufacturing sectors:

• Younger Generations: Newer workers are increasingly recognizing the importance of safety as part of their daily operations.
• Integration of Technology: Tools like the Convo Card app can facilitate safety discussions and improve compliance.

Conclusion

Mike Frick's experiences underscore the vital link between safety and productivity in the construction and manufacturing industries. By prioritizing safety, fostering open communication, and implementing effective incentive programs, companies can create a culture that not only protects workers but also enhances overall performance. As the industry evolves, embracing these principles will be crucial for future success.

Transcript

00:02
Good morning everyone. We have Mike Frick here this morning from Bear Iron Works. Mike, how's it going? Doing good. How are you doing? Great, thanks. Um Mike and I um met only a couple of weeks ago and in those initial discussions u we spoke about some of Mike's experience uh in in industry and in

00:24
safety and you know um when doing really well and and what his secrets were for that and I found it really interesting. So Mike, do you want to just open up by uh telling us kind of um the story that sort of led you into industry and and you know and what you did there and

00:42
things like that? Well, I think we're I mean in the beginning was um I my dad was a construction guy and he was also at a ranch c we raised cattle and so we did both. Um and he always told me goes you're you're very safety-minded guy. I mean and I guess it was because of him.

01:01
He didn't realize what he instilled in me. Maybe, right? Um, not losing my fingers. That was my incentive, right? That was the definition of safety minded. It hits home. Um, so as I go into my career, um, I'm, you know, pretty safety minded. I, right off the bat, 24 years old, I go into uh, my own

01:19
business and I'm doing that kind of work. And, um, in construction. Yeah. In construction. Construction and mining. Yes. And so the uh I did I did well at that. I had a couple of accidents in my own company. Two of them really. One where the guy cut an artery in his arm

01:42
and jeez, we was uh probably 50 miles from a hospital on on a dirt road and you know he got blood squirting out and luckily the guys on the job were able to put pressure on there and hold that together for until he got there. Wow. The guy fell off of a scaffold and um

01:58
you know in the United States here we got OSHAS that we have to deal with and um yes the uh I took a class on that. I had some I belong to an organization here and they they was like hey you should be on the safety committee and I'm like sure okay and so they said you

02:15
should go to be an OSHA trainer you should train safety. So I went that was a weekl long class and and by the time I got out I I didn't want I didn't want to be in business anymore because I had to abide by all these rules and everything and oh one guy goes no let me show you

02:29
how to do this and and he talked me down and said this is how we go about doing things like this and you can do it and as a matter of fact when I was able to do my safety better according to law uh I actually upped my game in my in my company so I was doing better in the

02:48
company because why is that? I've heard of that before. I mean the f famous Alcoa story where he focused on safety and the whole business lifted. What is it about that? You know, I think you just take things more serious and and you become a better manager. So when you

03:05
when you do that, you know, everything starts with safety. The old saying that safety first. you start there and then you, you know, you go to quality and then maybe you're you're dealing with your equipment and the people and and you're just it seems like you're gaining more knowledge and

03:20
you want to do better. So everything you do is better and and and then you know at the same time too if you're not having accidents you're you're you're working so you're producing your production. It's quite simple isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I because I was

03:35
in construction, too, and I remember if you um keep your site tidy, not even not even safe at this point. Just keep it really tidy, then you know it's going to be working better than an untidy site. And of course, safety is a big component of tidiness. They're very much related.

03:53
So, yeah. Yeah, I big on that. Yep. Keeping everything nice and neat. Yeah. So, so you went to an OSHA trainer role and and Yeah. How did that go? And and how Yeah, I mean the the guy that was uh that got me to go into it, he was actually a retired OSHA OSHA. He worked

04:12
for OSHA. Mhm. And I said, "Man, I I can't be in business anymore to do this." He goes, "No, no, there's things you can do." And so one of those things when he said when you were worried about the compliance regime and you just felt overwhelmed and then he he gave you some practical tips as to

04:31
what worked. Can you can you kind of like unpack any of that? Yeah, I mean like um I can't remember the exact examples he was using but like you know let's go to ladder safety maybe. And I mean there was so many things. There was a lot of things. And I'm like, man, I I'm not going to be able to

04:50
remember none of this. And and and I had a book, you know, that we had you you apply all the rules and everything. And and and maybe it was late ladder safety, like you have to stake it down at the bottom, tie it off at the top type thing or something like that. And I thought,

05:05
man, that takes too much time. I I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to remember to do that. And so then I think what he talked me into and I started stumbling on it back then is you start having a plan, you know, kind of a work plan and then in

05:19
that work plan you have your safety. What what's the things that are going to hurt you in this task here? What kind of things can hurt you and then address them and then go over that with the crew and say, "Hey, this is the things that could hurt you on this. Is it what we

05:33
need to be aware of today?" And so, you know, getting better production. So now you're planning you're you're planning for things. You're having a conversation. Yeah. With the crew. Yeah. Is that is that right? Is it that's So before starting you have a simple conversation with a crew. Say guys, what

05:51
are we going to do? What can hurt us? Is it those sorts of elements? Is it? Yeah. And and they buy into it. And every time you get someone to buy in, you know, your small crew, three or four guys or 10 guys maybe, and you bring them together and go, what's going to hurt us

06:04
here? And in the beginning, it's a little uncomfortable for them and then pretty soon they get they get involved with it, right? And so they they they got some say into it. They'll start sharing a story maybe of another job they was on and they would say, "Man, this is what happened here, you know,

06:19
and then you incorporate that and let them talk." Yep. And it becomes theirs and then they they get to own it. Yep. And if you can do that part of it, that's that's great. Yeah. Right. And are there any from that? So, that sounds like a really good management discipline that you that the

06:38
older kind of wiser um guy at the time handed to you and you thought, I'm going to take that up and and that's going to make safety practically practical and also helpful. Yeah. Are there any uh tools that help that that exist or is it simply you with a notepad and having a

06:59
conversation with the guys? Yeah, you know, the way the the OSHA book was laid out, you have your different like excavations maybe because I was a dirt guy and you have uh you go to you go to that part of the book and go, "Okay, what do we got to be aware of here today?" You know, you got to have a

07:14
ladder so many feet to get out of the trench. Yeah. Every every 25 ft I believe it is. And Okay. Um and you you're planning for that. And um you would go to the book, would you? Or would you? Oh, yeah. And then you know then I've got years I have some experience. I was going to say, yeah,

07:30
and you kind of get to know, you know, this is what's going to hurt me. And sometimes I tell people I'm probably the dangerous most dangerous person you want to be around when I'm by myself. Right. Right. Worried about nobody at that time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I take

07:43
chances and and then back, you know, when I was a kid or growing growing up through the years there, whatever. Yeah. I know it's going to hurt you. And then you look at the other guys, you know, I know it's going to hurt them and I know what's going to get them. this is what

07:55
could really this could this is something that's bad and we needed to address this here right now. Yes. And so that's interesting because what I always found was that that you know one thing about construction is experience. It's like um and and the word is said so often that

08:13
it almost loses its meaning. Um but it's like when you have dug um 150 trenches, you know what can you have a much better sense of what's going to um sort of get you. And so a book is not going to fix someone who's dug one trench in his in his time, right? Uh and and yet it seems like the legislation

08:41
says use this book like the book will save you. It's like you know what 150 trenches has um has really given me much richer knowledge right and so um we we've actually in the reason I say this is because we're we've got a new feature next year uh releasing early next year

09:01
with our with our app um which is called Convo card. Convo is Australian for conversation. Okay. Yeah. Um and what it's doing is encouraging a conversation before you start work. So, it's exactly what you're talking about. Um, is to get the the most experienced guy in the

09:18
circle. Might not be it might be the laborer, doesn't matter. And like you say, um, have pull it out of the people, get them to own it. Um, and then we're just a on our app, you just record it, press submit, you know, and then it's in. So, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So,

09:36
yeah. I mean, that's the way, you know, my the two accidents that happened when I owned my own construction business. I never had a pre meeting right at all. Right. Right. And so later on in life, I ended up, you know, going to work for a big construction company, one of the largest

09:55
here in in the United States. And they they were big on safety. And uh who's that if you don't mind? Or who was it? Yeah, it was Kiwit. K. Okay. Out of uh Texas, I think. Well, no, they're out of Omaha, Nebraska. They've Okay. Yeah. They've done a lot of Wow. Yeah. Okay. Cuz I spoke to some

10:17
Kiwi guys. They were very progressive. Like they searched us out when we were only in Australia. Um they came to us and said, "Hey, tell me more about it." And uh so it's very interesting company. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're on top of it. They Yeah. Yeah. I I um a lot of my

10:35
success is because of Keywit. My dad was a Keywit guy. Nice. And I and they taught me a lot. I mean, okay. They're super good teachers there. And they're really good at safety, too. Yes. And it's easy to do safety when especially when after you go to work for them, you

10:50
you figure it out. But um yeah, they have their problems. And so I was um I was a superintendent on a on a project and uh I had about 45 guys. Yep. Working on the project and we had heavy equipment running everywhere and some labors and things like that. So once a month all the superintendents

11:10
have to meet in Denver um to to uh talk about things and and so I remember the one time going there they sat us all down and they was mad because the safety I mean people were getting hurt like crazy having safety incences like crazy right and they're they're mad about it and they have this

11:30
big old screen up on the wall and they're showing everybody in the room there's 75 of us superintendents and other people in are going, "This isn't good. This isn't right." And they're showing everybody's records and you know, the worst guy I think had 10 in a month and and I'm I'm at the very bottom

11:46
at the at zero. And I kept on doing that 00 all the time. A matter of fact, while I was doing the zero uh accidents in incences, my profit margin was the highest in the company at the same time. Nice. Nice. So, um, so they came to me and they asked me and I'd been to other jobs. I visited

12:07
other jobs and and it seemed like a lot of guys were working mad all the time. It really did. You could just feel that when you got onto the job. And then they came to me and they asked me, they like, "So, what do you do?" Working mad. Mad. They just feel like they have a negative

12:20
attitude. Right. Got it. Got it. Like they're working mad, you know? Yes. Yes. Okay. It just happened. I wasn't not all of them, but a lot of them. Yep. But you got a sense kind of the guys that were at the top of that list. Okay. Yeah. And and they came to me and they said, "So,

12:35
what do you think the trick is? What are you doing different than everybody else?" And I said, "I'm not sure what I'm doing different, but the one thing that I do is I make sure I'm not their best friends out there on the job, but they I make sure that they know that I

12:49
that I care for them." Got it. And um once you know I would every morning I we would Keywood has a big deal n uh key companywide. Every morning before you start your shift you get out there and you talk about things and you do what they call stretch and flex and you you

13:06
stretch and do all this. Well, usually the superintendent doesn't go out there and um begin that. They they have a foreman go out their engineer. But I'd make sure I'd go out there every morning and, you know, get with the guys and ask them, "Hey, what do you how'd your kid

13:22
do last night playing football or whatever?" Right. And make sure they care for you because once they know that you care for them, they'll they'll do anything in the world for you as far as they can. I mean, as much as they can. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You go ask them to

13:34
put their safety glasses on. Okay, I'll do it. Yep. And you're not mad at them when you do it, right? You just say, "Hey." So that that was my secret to that. And so from that time on, I've really kept that up. It's so interesting. There's um a a really um interesting and and great guy. Uh his

13:54
name's Clay and uh he's an Aussie. Uh and he's living in Thailand for what it's worth. Um um doing safety stuff. And he has such a similar story. He went to oil and gas. He was the safety guy. He wasn't a superintendent. He was the safety guy. Oil and gas, a big company

14:12
that heard it all before. um and he was there I think he was g about to give a half an hour um induction kind of safety thing and then he sensed the the audience and he said um look and and he basically said don't worry about this half an hour you already know this sort

14:30
of stuff he realized that the problem wasn't a lack of knowledge the problem was attitude and attitude was about connection with them uh and once you connect with people then they start to kind engage and brighten up and like you say um then all of a sudden everything

14:47
lifts. So it's it's it's very very similar to what you just said is that we're not talking about kumbaya. You were careful to say at the start you weren't there to be their um best friends or anything like that. There's still got to be an air gap between you know but but what you're saying is that

15:06
this um connection this is is very very important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's amazing how how well it works. It's fun to me. It's fun to get to know your workers and seeing what they're up to and understanding them a little bit. I had one guy one time he we I know I was doing oil and gas work then

15:28
also for we were building locations and doing things and they sent me out on a job. We was just getting started and for accidental oil as a matter of fact and sorry small little job and they had three guys on the job. They wanted me to get it going. He's going to build it big

15:44
and and so they had they sent me three old guys. The guys about ready to retire and they the one guy he was just always seemed like he didn't want to do anything that we told him to do, you know. And I said, "Well, we have to have steel toe boots on out here." And he

16:01
goes, "I ain't wearing them. I ain't gonna do it." Yeah. I'm like, "So, I gotta go back to my bosses." And then then Oxygen Oil is like, "How come he's, you know, he's got to be he's got to be fired. He's got to be terminated. He can't be on our job site anymore." Yeah.

16:14
And so, um, so I went up to him and he was running an excavator. And I said, "Man, I they want me to, um, terminate you or get you off of this job because of it." And I I slowed him way down so that he wasn't mad anymore. And I said, "Listen, you got to you got to tell me

16:30
why. You got to tell me why." He goes, he goes, "Just a second. I'm going to show you something." He pulls off his boot and his toes are all messed up. They got he was in uh Vietnam, right? And he got I forget what the dam I forget how it happened, but it was caused by trap metal or something like

16:49
that, right? Got hit. And he goes, "I can't wear steel toes cuz my toes come up and they hit the steel toe." And then I went back to accidental. I says he can't wear them because this is the reason why. They're like, "Oh, okay. Well, if there's a reason for it, we I

17:02
say he's going to be in the excavator all the time. He's not getting out." Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes you got to find out why why someone doesn't want to do it, you know, abide by the rules. There's an underlaying reason maybe. Yeah. And he's a bit too proud to sort

17:16
of say it from the from the start, which you can't deny. And in front of everybody. Yeah. The RO. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Um what about so with your safety record I really I'm so interested in that relationship between safety and performance because in kind

17:31
of recent years in safety let's say the last 20 years um you know um the purest safety people said don't mention performance because per you know if you concentrate on performance then um that's at the expense of safety and I it never sat well with me it was like no no no the two of them coexist like

17:49
absolutely so can we talk more about um how encouragement works for you. So you've spoken about connection uh the um and how important that is. Um encouragement versus so carrot versus stick um encouraging them to do to be more safe versus um making sure they comply. Um

18:12
you know you got any thoughts on that? Yeah, actually I've had a little bit of a situation. So I went from the construction industry to the manufacturing industry. So we manufacture um construction products now, rock screens mainly. Yes. And so it's a little bit different character, but not a lot in

18:32
the man like welders and guys working in the shop all day long and they do the same thing day in and day out. And and here I am bringing in my all my safety stuff, right, for eight guys that that I have working in there. And it's been a little rough trying to get them to keep

18:49
the seat belt on on the on the forklift, you know, little things like that. Yeah. The big things are doing great at they do great. Right. So, we just recently um brought in a program where we say, "Hey, listen. If you don't get caught, if you get caught not wearing

19:08
the safety, the seat belt, then we're going to put a mark against your name. And then at the end of the month, we're going to um reward you with money or days off or whatever that thing might be. And since we've done that, there hasn't been one person get caught. And

19:24
we have a we have a shop foreman that he's a stickler on it. I I He's even an OSHA trainer also. And he's a stickler on it big time. He goes, "Yeah, man. I have to split this reward up with everybody. What do I do? Everything's been going great since then, right?

19:39
Okay. So, you you you had a choice with um with how to motivate them, carrot or stick. And um you you know the price of the stick. It's hard enough at work. People when they disengage, it's a vicious circle. Um so, you decided to Well, it's kind of like a a backhanded

19:60
um compliment. It's like a backhanded uh reward because you're saying when we don't catch you doing an infraction. So uh so you get like a demerit in your in that system. So if you have your seatelt off, you get a demerit. Whoever has the least demerits at the end of the

20:19
month, whoever has the cleanest record gets the reward. Is that basically how it is? Yeah. They get like there's like the what? They get first place, second place, third place type thing. Right. Right. Right. That's an interesting way to look at it. We've got a trucking

20:32
company uh as a client and I'm not sure if you're aware but trucking now has all these telematics. They've got um the the device that um I think Geotab's the world's largest uh it's an American company and you know how fast are you breaking, how fast you accelerating, how

20:49
um long is your truck idle, like thousands of data points. Um, right. And then they integrate with inc cab cameras. And so the cameras are looking at everything that you do. So if you smoke a cigarette, it knows about it. If you, god forbid, if you're on the phone,

21:06
it knows about it immediately and it pings you and it ramp r and then you you get a demerit point, all that sort of thing, right? Um, and as you can imagine, you're a truck driver. You're going, "Oh my god, like um my my job is hard enough now. Now I've got big brother there just watching me 24/7.

21:25
This doesn't feel great at all. And so what Scratchy's doing is taking that table of all the of all the mistakes people make and the demerit points flipping it the 180 and saying who's the the least demerits? You go you guys get a prize. So at least now they know that

21:43
there's a bit of a balance there. They go okay if I do the wrong thing I'm going to get whacked for it. I get that. But if I do the right thing, I'm going to get recognized for it. I'm going to get rewarded. Good. So, you know, we kind of do that a little bit on that. We

21:58
if they come up with a safety idea, we definitely recognize them, right? Like if it's something really cool that is really going to save something. Yeah. We we'll buy we'll buy the whole we buy the whole crew lunch for the day, things like that. Yeah. Nice. Everybody gets

22:15
rewarded for it. and and how has um how how has it changed between construction and manufacturing? You sort of you sort of started to talk about how with manufacturing it's kind of a process. So there's um there's more routine to to what you do and there's got that's got

22:35
its own maybe complacency or something is it or complacency. they're doing the same thing and right you really got to remind them of it and and and for a welding shop I don't know you know what kind of welding shops everybody's been in but welding shops I've been just dirty

22:52
there iron laying everywhere we don't I mean the at the end of every day we clean it we clean everything up yeah right it's nice and neat sweep everything and put our iron away and Got it um so yeah the it's the same it's hard to write that safety because on construction construction every day it

23:09
changes. Especially in the Yeah. dirt world, civil contracting, you may be doing concrete one day and dirt work the next day type thing or installing something or something different every day. Yes. Where we're at, we do the same thing and we try to, you know, learn

23:24
from our mistakes, too. If someone does something that was a close call, like, man, we could we could do something better. We we make things like we make our own hoist to hold things in a certain position. Yes. And then uh make it safer. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. It was So,

23:40
there's one manufacturer um who is a client of ours in Australia and they they spray this epoxy um and so it's like this it's terrible really. Um there's there's kind of epoxy in the air and all that sort of stuff. And they have all the breathing equipment. They've got all this the

23:58
right safety stuff. The problem they had was the guys complying with it and um and so they wouldn't wear their breathing apparatus and like you know some of the time but it's like they should be always wearing their breathing apparatus when they're spraying and you

24:15
know there's a couple of ways if you don't if you don't work in industry you go I just fire them and you go yeah it's it's not that simple because there's um there's usually other factors like you say um let's try and unpack that and So what they did was they said if you if we

24:33
catch you similar to what what you've done in your manufacturing setup if we catch you doing the right thing all the time we will reward you on the spot. So it's not even the demerit thing at the end of the month the the supervisor will come around and say Joe breathing

24:48
apparatus happy days scan this you win. Joe's like awesome you know on the spot as it happens. Uh and so uh of course compliance went through the roof but also morale goes through the roof, productivity improves, the connection between supervisor and worker improves,

25:06
all that sort of stuff. So it's it's an interesting thing. I think it was um Charlie Munger actually um he's a he's Omaha. Omaha. Yeah, there we go. As a matter of fact, it's funny that you say that because Warren Buffett, which everybody knows, Charlie's his partner,

25:22
right? Yeah. So Warren Buffett's um teacher I think in fifth grade. So Peter Kiwit and Warren Buffett were pretty good friends. All right. The one stock that Warren Buffett could never own was Kiwit stock and he wanted you have to be an employee to own that stock. Okay.

25:39
Peter Keywit offered him a job. And so um of course he didn't take it. But Peter Kwit's sister there was an age difference there. But Peter Kiwit's sister taught Warren Buffett in like fifth grade in Omah. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Yep. And and his office is in the Keywit Plaza. So it's And it's

26:00
office. Yeah. Wait. So Warren's office is in Keywood Plaza. Gosh, that's a tie up. Yeah. Well, you know the story and and War and Charlie Mer has many many apherisms, lots of quotes. And one of them is he said, "Every time I um tried to estimate the power of an

26:22
incentive. I underestimated it. He said, "The power of an incentive is crazy." He goes, "You know, show me an incentive. I will show you a behavior." Right? You know, it's it's interesting how that works. And we keep forgetting. We keep underestimating that. We keep saying,

26:37
"No, let's save money. Let's not you know what I say to people from outside the US is um who's got the best table service in the world? who where are the best waitresses and waiters in the world? People say it's the US. It's like that's where the best service is. It's

26:53
like what what country has tipping built in to the DNA of service? And they go, it's the US. And I'm like, is that a coincidence? You know, it's like you put the incentive there, you you get the behavior. So, you know, it's it's interesting how that how that works.

27:12
Yeah. We I I when I worked for Kiwit, I was running a coal mine uh project for Riotinto and which I think that was an Australian based company. Yep. Yep. And so the um there are safety incentives. This is crazy. Not only were they top wage earners at this mine, there's three or 400

27:36
uh coal miners there, you know, strip mining, big big heavy equipment. Yep. Yep. And so they had a safety incentive and if they didn't get hurt, I think all of them got 20 grand, $20,000 a year each one of these people. It's just the wrong incentive. So you want to talk about safety? Really? So

27:54
they got Oh, so it actually worked. Oh man, it was Yeah. I mean, you go out on the job and if you didn't have your safety glasses on or you did something that was unsafe and you and sometimes you know how you're like, "Hey, put them safety glasses on." Everybody's like,

28:08
"Yeah, you know, I ain't doing that. These guys are Oh, thank you. Thank you. All right. They have a lot of that going on. And then Okay. They also had a tire incentive. So, you got, you know, these 12 foot hall truck tires. They got mining equipment. Got it. And so, them

28:24
things cost a lot of money. And if there was a rock in the road, everybody had a radio and everybody go, "Hey, there's a rock over here in such and such road." Man, the old road grader was going over there and knocking it off the road. So they also I think they got like $10,000

28:37
incentive on after the the budget for tires at the end of the year they got to share in that in that profit. Right. So they really so Rio really understood the power of incentives. Oh man. Yeah. And and I think what I've noticed with safety is the the um incentives are so powerful that if

28:56
you are not careful, you're going to incentivize the wrong behavior. And what we've seen in oil and gas is an extension of what you said there. They say to the managers, if you have low lost time injuries or let's say no LTIs on this job, we will give you a massive

29:17
bonus. And so that so they get that they get no LTI. Um now, but what actually happens? Well, a guy slashes his leg and he goes out the side gate, right? um it's like pack that guy off he cannot well I've got to have zero LTIs and so they doctor things they you know so it's

29:38
almost the right incentive but not quite it's like right and what we found was that if you reward the lag indicators the LTI it's not it can go wrong really easily if you reward the good behavior as it happens like you said your guy wearing the simple seat belt reward reward um you know uh breathing

30:02
apparatus on reward not all the time but at enough time for them to go I might get rewarded for this like right if you reward that behavior so the lead indicators so to speak then you get exactly what you want is that that good behavior yeah yeah it is it it works

30:20
yeah yeah yeah it's it's amazing how you have to reward somebody to take care of theirel it is it is fascinating and and the the only thing I can think of because it's easy to say ah you know um it's easy to sort of say ah um IQ or socioeconomic or something like that but I think it's the

30:42
wrong way to look at it. I I think predominantly James here is interested in present James. He's not so much interested in future James. If something's good for future James, but it's awkward for present James, present James probably not going to be interested in doing it, right? And I

30:59
think it's a human nature thing. And so what we did with the breathing apparatus thing was to make it a um worthwhile for present James. He might win a job, win a a prize. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. So I think that but it's crazy. I agree with you how something from our

31:17
perspective, okay, we're here in our in our living rooms or wherever we might be and you know, life is good and we've got a few runs on the board. So, um, we might see it differently, but you know, I I would say if we were in that situation, whatever situation that worker's in, you know, I I don't I

31:35
wouldn't put it past us thinking the similar way to that worker, you know. Yeah. I think it's a human nature thing. Yeah. I'm I'm old enough now, too, to to have proof in my body. I can go from my toes to my head. And yeah, I just spent I got I got these two teeth knocked out,

31:51
my front two teeth knocked out when I was young. And I just got back from the dentist today going, "Hey, man, you got problem from that damage. It's going up into a bone now." Wow. And I'm going to have to have it extracted. They're going to, you know, put something. And it was

32:05
all because I did I tacked something with a welder that should have been welded completely and I was using a tool the wrong way. Got it. They come back to bite me and then you know over lifting. I've had back surgery. I've had hernia surgeries twice. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

32:22
That's right. But I'm living proof. Exactly. Mike was thinking about present Mike, not future Mike. Uh we all do it. Yeah. Exactly. So no, it's it's fascinating. Yeah. Fascinating how that works. So, um, where do you see, uh, so you're sort of construction, manufacturing, you're in that nexus.

32:42
Where do you see safety heading in the US kind of, um, especially with a new um, administration, you're about to looks like you're about to really um, get a lot more efficient in terms of um, you know, right? Um, so doing all that, uh, looking forward, what what can you

33:02
can you sort of see any changes on the horizon? Yeah, it's a little bit different out there. Um, I mean, you still got a lot of construction that's going to happen in the United States and across the whole world, really. Yeah, I think I mean, people are growing. You

33:15
got to have stuff built and construction is always going to be there. Um, yeah. And I think people are are identifying that safety is part of the construction plan. I mean the everyday plan. Yeah. You know, I was just I saw I help with my stepson. He's got a construction

33:33
business. He does what I used to do. Yep. And so I've really told him you got to plan every single day and he's really getting in on that and understanding that. And I think the younger generation is seeing it because a lot of us older guys are like going that's a real deal.

33:50
This is a real thing and if you get your safety figured out, the rest of your management of your company's probably going to follow suit. Yeah. So, I think the younger people are doing it. I I have a son that uh he went to college for construction management and he

34:06
worked for a big company for a while and um he he's seen it. He's seen, you know, how it works and he's a big believer. I think the younger generation maybe seeing it better than than than me my my generation, you know, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um you really just a thought

34:26
just struck me. Um I might after this um podcast, I might show you our plans for this convo card that I mentioned before because I really think uh yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think this would be really worthwhile. I'm very excited because it's exactly what you

34:45
said. Um and we've made a um something for for that to sort of systematize it. Yeah. Yeah. And I even though I have all this experience after I talked to you the first time, I was like, man, he's got this this really cool app. I mean, this thing this is cool. And I I kind of

35:02
wish I had that. And I pro we probably will look at it some more here for sure now. Yeah. Um, but it's a simple way to get something a tool to use in your in your company. I think I'm not trying to just give you this thing because we're here doing this right now, but it is

35:19
cool. It saves a lot of people a lot of time. Totally. It very much aligns with your your management. Um, you know, and it's funny, you know, the people that we've spoken to because it's a whole new category. the thought the the thought of rewarding people for being safe is

35:34
completely new in Australia. Australia the last and and the states for that matter and we're only just coming to the states next year. We're not even there yet. But um you you would we would find when we explained in the early days two three years ago what we were doing you

35:52
you you get this different reaction on the other side of the table and you see people's eyes glaze over and you you're like ah it's this is not for you. Like it's simply I'm not going to try and sell it. It's just and then the other and then in other occasions you see

36:07
people go oh my god where have you been? This is amazing. I want this tomorrow. like it's, you know, and we had that conversation with McDonald's. We we spoke to um a very influential franchisee in in um in Sydney with um many stores and we didn't even have to there was no sort of pitch. There was no

36:29
sell as soon as he knew he knew in advance what we did. He was like let's go, you know, um let's talk about implementation. This is awesome. because they've found that rewarding their workers has this um huge upside. Um and they found that in their history since sort of 1970. Um yeah, I don't know if

36:51
in fact I might mention this story while we're here. Um Peter Richie um was so a McDonald's Australia was a laggot. It it was the bottom of the tables. Um we had the highest paid people in Asia in our in our region and lowest performing. We were terrible and um losing money and

37:16
everything else. Peter Richie was the founding managing director. He started to make money after a few years. He started to make money but we were still at the bottom of the tables. And as you know McDonald's like quicks serve restaurants they measure everything and we were still at the

37:32
bottom but we were starting to make money. Peter said to the states, "I'm going to spend a third of my profit on people, training, incentivizing, motivating." And they said, "A third is way too much. You don't understand. This is a thin margin business." And he said,

37:48
"I'm still going to do it." So he did it and McDonald's Australia, top of the tables, um most highest productivity, highest customer service, like you know, all the rest of it. and Peter Richie became something of a legend um in well in Australia but but but in McDonald's

38:06
actually because then they started to look at um Australia and they said well actually that's working. I mean it's it's a really good example of if you incentivize people you get um a disproportionate outcome. Yeah. And so that was why and and these guys were kind of the disciples of Peter Richie.

38:25
So that's why when we spoke to them, they were like, "Let's do let's do this, you know." Yeah. Sneeze. Yeah. Yeah. It works. It It works. It works. Yeah. Great. Well, um, anything else to share? Uh, anything you'd like to share with the the listeners at all in terms

38:42
of, um, manufacturing, safety, um, life in Nebraska. Yeah. Right. No, it's been Yeah. Kiwa did some work in in Australia. I think it was actually TIC. Okay. Was their subsidiary did a I think it was an LG plant. Okay. Yeah. Some sort LG Northwest. Yeah. But um yeah, I don't know. I've had fun in

39:09
my career and being safe is cool because I can tell you that, you know, when I did have two guys get hurt. Um and it really was my only accidents and both of them ended up in the hospital. I mean, I had a couple of cuts and stuff, but nothing serious at all. But, you know, when you got to go to a

39:26
hospital, especially the one guy, he fell off a scaffold. He busted his hip. He he'll never work construction again. Luckily for him, he had a backup plan, which was being a teacher, right? And uh he but going to the hospital and seeing him down and out because he, you know,

39:43
he knows he's crippled for for life and his wife is there and you got to deal with that and you're you're looking at this guy going, man. And the thing was is I I stepped out of that that work that job site that day and I looked up and I thought I I just about said

39:57
something to him and I didn't. Right. Right. And so that was my lesson learned is I always say something. Guys might get tired of me saying it. I might think that they get tired of me saying it, but at least I'm going to say it. I don't care how corny it sounds or how bad they

40:14
may not like it. I'm going to say it. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great thing to leave. Actually, we'll uh we'll end the podcast on that. I uh Mike, I really appreciate uh the conversation and I look forward to in fact I I might um ping you straight after if you've got time and I'll go through some of the

40:32
ideas. Uh and so yeah, we can carry that on. But uh thanks a lot and uh yeah, and we'll speak soon. Okay. Thank you. Bye. See you. Yep.